Violence – Futility – Violence – Futility . . .

Fiona Uncategorized

Bushfire Bill gets it:

When I was watching 60s war movies with my Dad as a little’n, I used to ask him why the Germans bothered with armies and stuff, when they could just blow up bombs in London and terrify the populace that way.

He talked to me about “rules”.

Later on, after I grew up a little, I thought that if The State (l’Etat?) guarantees more or less 100% security, then anyone who took even 1% off that, was defying the State’s authority and was thus undermining the other 99% of the State.

In my mature(r) years, I have thought that if WE bomb THEM, then why can’t THEY bomb US?

The product sold to us in the West of highly trained fighter jocks, 30,000 feet above the fray, dropping laser guided bombs on hapless and defenceless targets, who then die terrible deaths with their bloody, eviscerated intestines wrapped around the severed, eyeless, lipless heads of their children, was always false advertising.

We sit in our fighter jets playing win-win video games.

They arm themselves with Kalashnikovs and retaliate against our homeland.

Yet the former is moral and surgical. The latter excites worldwide horror and revulsion.

It’s not win-win anymore. The targets have learned how to be the aggressors.

Can we really blame them for retaliating in the best way they know how?Can we condemn them for bringing home to us, in our supposedly secure cities, just what it is like to have random murder perpetrated on our citizens and loved ones?

I’m as horrified as the next person by what happened today. I’m revolted and disgusted about Paris.

But can I blame “the enemy” for giving back to “us” some of what we have done to “them”?

In my heart of hearts, I can’t.

I hate it, but you can’t say we weren’t warned of the consequences of our actions.

Can someone tell me I’m wrong? And if I am, where I’m wrong?

As does Leone (not to mention every Pubster who has been commenting since earlier today):

You are right, and I agree with everything you say.

Tonight New Matilda gave us this –
(IMAGE: Moyan Brenn, Flickr) Paris Attacks Highlight Western Vulnerability, And Our Selective Grief And Outrage
https://newmatilda.com/2015/11/14/paris-attacks-highlight-western-vulnerability-and-our-selective-grief-and-outrage/

It has attracted quite a bit of ‘how dare you say this right now’ comment. But it is absolutely right, and there is no ‘good’ time to point out how hypocritical we are, weeping over one outrage and ignoring another, just as horrifying, because those killed or injured are not white, or European, or Australian.

And Kaye Lee from AIMM:

Does anyone truly believe that violence can lead the world to a better place?

There can be only one reason for the attacks in Paris and that is to draw the West into increased military action in the Middle East, and from the sounds of it, that has been the call from many people today.

To those whose answer to the bombs and bullets is bigger bombs and more bullets, I would say you are being manipulated in the same way as the ignorant deluded handful of people who carried out these attacks.

How can you claim to be on the side of right when you use the same methods – go to a foreign country and kill innocent people?

How can you speak of national security and protecting your borders as you invade other countries?

How can you claim to be protecting human rights as you bomb hospitals?

How can you claim to be fighting for freedom as you lock up the people fleeing from oppression?

We have removed countless despots and dictators but rarely has it gone well. We install corrupt governments or leave when it becomes politically inconvenient to stay and leave people to cope with the mess we leave behind. We train and arm paramilitary groups and then abandon them and show surprise when they team up with others we don’t care for.

The armaments industry is a huge global business with no ethics. Defence forces are empire builders who demand hundreds of billions to ‘keep us safe’ as they spark aggression around the world.

If you kill people, others will want revenge. Where does it stop?

Is humanity capable of civilisation? Capable of tolerance? Capable of accepting the responsibility of caring for and nurturing all children, educating them, and protecting the environment so they can have a future?

Billy Connelly used to do a skit about his mother belting him for hitting his sister. Are we to respond to violence with violence and see ourselves as saviours?

Until we learn to respect each other and the planet we share, we are doomed to let those who would use us for their own power and profit pull the strings.

VIOLENCE BEGETS ONLY ONE THING – MORE VIOLENCE

Somehow, we – the beneficiaries of the West’s crusading, colonising, exploiting activities for so many centuries – have to resolve this hellish brew. As far as I’m concerned, however, Kaye Lee has nailed it:

Until we learn to respect each other and the planet we share, we are doomed to let those who would use us for their own power and profit pull the strings.

525 thoughts on “Violence – Futility – Violence – Futility . . .”

  2. Isn’t it marvellous that the West back these head choppers ? Until we ditch these funders of fundy crazies then any claim of “fighting terrorism” by Western pollies is utter bullshit.

    “Saudi Arabia declares all atheists are terrorists in new law to crack down on political dissidents

    Atheists, peaceful protesters and those who go to fight abroad have all been brought under the auspices of new “anti-terror” laws”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-declares-all-atheists-are-terrorists-in-new-law-to-crack-down-on-political-dissidents-9228389.html

  3. Kaffeeklatscher,

    Until we ditch these funders of fundy crazies then any claim of “fighting terrorism” by Western pollies is utter bullshit.

    How could we possibly do that? Think of the oil children, mon, think of the oil children.

  5. The Pub sits back and evaluates.

    And we refer to “interesting” stuff.

    As I have said many times: do not lose your cool.

  6. tlbd and BK

    When we watch the cricket we have abc radio on, commenters are not too bad, can’t stand the tv commenters. Night all.

  7. The Kiwis are playing for a draw.

    Being one down and another to play, that does not really compute.

  9. 2gravel,

    I know a bit about cricket and do not need commentary ball by ball and the all verbiage.

    I hope your listening does it for you. After all, when I came to Australia in 1957, I listened to cricket on the radio.

  11. http://www.cfmeu.net.au/news/cfmeu-statement-%E2%80%93-submissions-of-counsel-assisting-the-royal-commission-regarding-andrew-zaf

    Sound from the interview is above in the second tweet above. Although it has a bit of slant, so far the OZ has the only story on this by anyone. I was not aware the TURC was dropping any effort to get Setka before today. I’ve copied the whole short article below.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/unions-royal-commission-were-not-criminals-insists-john-setka/story-fn59niix-1227611318064

    Unions royal commission: we’re not criminals insists John Setka
    THE AUSTRALIAN NOVEMBER 16, 2015 6:48PM
    Elizabeth Colman Industrial correspondent

    The boss of the militant Victorian construction union branch, John Setka, has slammed the trade union royal commission after the inquiry dropped its investigation into corruption allegations against him, declaring “we’re not criminals”.

    In a rare radio interview this morning, Mr Setka conceded recent revelations from the Commission over credit card fraud at the National Union of Workers had been “eye-opener” but branded the inquiry “as unbiased as the Collingwood cheer squad”.

    He also made an impassioned defence against suggestions there should be a standing royal commission into unions and the government’s attempts to restore the Australian Building and Construction Commission.

    “The construction industry is no worse or better than any other industry,” Mr Setka said. “It just seems to be the place that gets targeted.

    “We’re hard working Australians, I mean we’ve helped build Australia … I mean we’re not criminals, we’re not gangsters.

    “All these allegations against us there’s not one shred of evidence or proof

    “I mean we’re hard working construction workers, you know, eight times more likely to die at work than anyone else, and yet they want to put more restrictions on us, and have this big hammer hanging over our heads.”

    During a friendly exchange, Melbourne radio host Jon Faine on ABC 774 suggested the inquiry had sought to bury news absolving Mr Setka of corruption “late on a Friday” — despite the commission releasing counsel’s submissions at 3.20pm.

    “The royal commission was, as much as anything, set up because of activities allegedly conducted by Mr Setka,” Faine told listeners.

    That’s why, Faine said, it was “astonishing” that counsel had released submissions that essentially cleared Mr Setka “after the newspapers had been sent to the printer”.

    He asked Mr Setka: “What about the announcement coming late on a Friday?”

    Mr Setka replied: “Far as I’m concerned it’s a political witch hunt, I mean they are biased … So I mean it comes as no surprise to us, or myself”.

    Mr Setka was accused by builder Andrew Zaf of taking free roofing materials in exchange for industrial peace. The allegations aired on the ABC’s 7:30 Report.

    Counsel’s submissions released at 3.20pm argued Mr Zaf was not a credible witness.

    The CFMEU later issued a press release accusing the inquiry of trying to fit an “anti-union theory” adding, “John Setka deserves an apology from the Liberal Party’s Royal Commission, from Fairfax, Nick McKenzie and from ABC’s 7:30 report”.

    Mr Setka remains the subject of a recommendation he face coercion and blackmail charges, outlined in Commissioner Dyson Heydon’s interim report.

    The Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy union agreed to pay Grocon and Boral $3.5 million and $9 million respectively to settle legal action over industrial disputes this year led by Mr Setka.

  12. gravel
    Yes the radio commentary is much better and interesting than Channel 9’s.
    Mind you, so would be silence!

  13. Just on thought, If the media really thought the ALP getting rid of Shorten would improve the party’s chances then we would be inundated with pieces proclaiming that doing so would prove that Labor hasn’t learned from its past.

  19. Bewildered?

    Bothered?

    Bewitched?

    Betwattled?

    To be honest, it’s probably unfair to shaft all the blame onto Dubya.

    Think, after all, of his glorious Veep, the rootin’ tootin’ fellow gun-slinger-wounding

    Plus all his acolytes, including this explicitly clear one:

    “[T]here are known knowns; there are things we know that we know.
    There are known unknowns; that is to say there are things that, we now know we don’t know.
    But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don’t know.”

    —Former United States Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld

    not to mention this especially delectable little number:

    ‘That’s not the way the world really works anymore,’ he continued. ‘We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality— judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors… and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.’

    (who may have a separated – though somewhat slimmer – twin in Oz)

  21. Gippsland Laborite,

    In that case, Gordon must be in fine form.

    The target/idol is irrelevant for someone of his ilk. Note: I did NOT call him a journalist.

  22. I did NOT call him a journalist.

    Just as well as I doubt that writing poorly written wish fulfilment fan fics is part of a journalist’s job description.

  23. Gippsland Laborite,

    I was quite sure you would agree with my assessment of his ‘work’/’writing’.

    Amazing how critically vicious a lengthy session of assessing uni students’ writing makes one (aka moi).

    I do try to be a bit kinder in my comments.

    A bit.

    I do try . . .

  24. Fiona

    Yep, G Dubya Shrub was just a glove puppet for those nutters. Rumsfeld and Chaney are seriously dangerous. Before the election of Dubya I saw a French doco series on US presidencies since WWII. Cheney and Rumsfeld popped up back in the Ford/Nixon era.

    They stuck in my memory because archival footage showed them speaking approvingly of the option of a first strike or “limited” nuclear attack on the USSR. One of them used the !!!! phrase that it would be a “winnable” nuclear war. Not very reassuring to be reminded of them when Bush gave them such power.

  25. Kaffeeklatscher,

    I remember that particular documentary and it was not, as it were (to quote my favourite maths teacher) encouraging.

    I also remember – vividly – driving my then supervisor home one day (we live in adjoining suburbs). At that point he had lived in America for 14 years, and despite his analytic skills and definitely being on the left side of politics, he maintained there was no way America would elect Shrub.

    Of course I countered with Reagan.

    I, unfortunately, won that argument in the long run.

    I haven’t been game to ask his views about the next US Presidential outcome.

    However, I also don’t think that will be the game-changer either way.

    What will? Absolutely no idea.

  31. http://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/hanson-wont-explain

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/nov/16/chris-mitchell-standing-down-as-editor-in-chief-of-the-australian

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/liberal-pledge-to-demand-plain-cigarette-packaging-draws-cheers/article27054353/

    http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/malcolm-turnbull-was-right-direct-action-is-a-climate-con-72838

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-16/minister-declares-conflict-coal-mine-bordering-home/6943098

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-end-of-one-china-1447434065 no paywall

  32. French president Francois Hollande appealed on Monday for a grand coalition including the United States and Russia to eradicate Islamic State in Syria after bloody militant attacks on Paris.
    In a solemn address to a joint session of parliament in the Palace of Versailles that began with the words “France is at war”, Mr Hollande announced an increase in police recruitment, a halt to layoffs in the army and a constitutional amendment to strengthen the fight against “war by terrorism“.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/paris-attacks-france-is-at-war-says-hollande-1.2431800

  34. This story is not appearing in the Australian media.

    Putin: ISIS financed from 40 countries, including G20 members

    President Vladimir Putin says he’s shared Russian intelligence data on Islamic State financing with his G20 colleagues: the terrorists appear to be financed from 40 countries, including some G20 member states.

    During the summit, “I provided examples based on our data on the financing of different Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL) units by private individuals. This money, as we have established, comes from 40 countries and, there are some of the G20 members among them,” Putin told the journalists.

    Putin also spoke of the urgent need to curb the illegal oil trade by IS.

    “I’ve shown our colleagues photos taken from space and from aircraft which clearly demonstrate the scale of the illegal trade in oil and petroleum products,” he said.

    “The motorcade of refueling vehicles stretched for dozens of kilometers, so that from a height of 4,000 to 5,000 meters they stretch beyond the horizon,” Putin added, comparing the convoy to gas and oil pipeline systems

    https://www.rt.com/news/322305-isis-financed-40-countries/

    Instead we are given this very different view –
    G20 piles pressure on Putin to help end Syrian war

    G20 leaders have piled pressure on Russia’s President Vladimir Putin to fall into line and help end the Syrian conflict as France launched the first major air strike against Islamic State since the Paris attacks on Friday.

    United States President Barack Obama said his country and her allies, including Australia, needed to redouble their efforts to eliminate Islamic State. Mr Obama, British Prime Minister David Cameron and European nations, all pressured Russia to focus its military efforts on eliminating Islamic State and not the “moderate” opposition fighting the regime of Bashar al Assad

    http://www.afr.com/news/politics/g20-piles-pressure-on-putin-to-help-end-syrian-war-20151115-gkzpm7

    Here’s Putin, a few weeks ago, explaining just who created ISIS. You can come to your own conclusions on all this.

  37. If you have not seen Waleed Aly’s comments on ISIL (linked last night at 8.16) then you should.

  38. leonetwo

    On this I’d back Putin. Even the US military guys concluded 2 years ago the “moderates” do not exist as a fighting force anymore. There is only an alphabet soup of Jihadi groups left fighting .

    Turkey has found the oil trade a nice little earner but lots of blind eyes being turned. What with them being a NATO member and all that.

  42. An interesting post from Jennifer Wilson:

    I am of the opinion that it is the intention of Daesh to turn us against one another, and have those of us they don’t slaughter permanently weakened by fear, mistrust and hatred. Abbott’s trajectory, and that of those who support him, will lead us to precisely the same place: severely weakened by fear, mistrust and hatred, bitterly divided against one another. Daesh could not find more suitable allies than Abbott, Hanson, the usual shock jocks, religious fundamentalists and those who in some way, material and egotistical, profit from war.

    http://noplaceforsheep.com/2015/11/17/turnbull-v-abbott-pm-in-an-age-of-terror/

  43. Leone,

    Must-read indeed. Fascinating, and confirms all we had always feared when the coalition of the willing was formed.

  44. My opinion of the latest polls.

    Policy doesn’t matter, just the salesman.

    My one criticism of Labor. They should have only and always said, “The Liberal Party”, when talking about any and all problems with any of the lnp policies.

    The Australian people are just like fish, no memory.

    My answer: Many people will suffer greatly if they re-elect the lnp, and it will be too late.

  45. Aly’s address on The Project is well worth digesting, Leone.

    He has a nice ability to reach out while still looking at it rationally. What a contrast from the Chicken Little approach of Hanson and MSM who give her air time for click-bait/ratings purposes.

    Aly may well have made one of the most profound statements since FDR’s Great Depression address, “We have nothing to fear but fear itself.”

  46. CTar1

    Interesting about the Greeks. Are they buying it for themselves or shipping it elsewhere ?

    Heard good term to describe the myriad groups fighting in Syria -“31 flavours of Jihad.”

  47. I agree with Jennifer Wilson on the intentions of Islamic State or whatever you like to call it. But to get to that opinion I had to wade through the usual ‘Turnbull is so charming/intelligent/urbane’ garbage that is all over everywhere now. I can do without that.

    Something that has become increasingly obvious over the last 48 hours – Turnbull has no idea how to handle a crisis. He’s just a show pony, a decoration, a smarmy face with a glib line in salesmanship but with noting else to offer.

    Turnbull no doubt expected the time up until the next election campaign to be a succession of balmy days spent making pretty speeches, greeting visiting VIPs and waving to the adoring multitude. He has had a big shock. A terrorist attack, and even worse, it took place while he was in Europe. This attack has allowed us to see the real Turnbull. He is just a weathervane, saying whatever he thinks his audience at any given time wants to hear. Abbott was the same. Just more proof that Turnbull is Abbott in a nicer suit.

    It was always clear that terrorism would be a big part of the G20 discussions. Turnbull started off by pandering to the peacemongers, saying a political solution was needed and rebuffing Abbott’s idea of sending in more troops and bombs. Maybe that went down well in Berlin, maybe not. Then came the attack and Turnbull changed his mind. Over the last few days he has suggested sending in Australian peacekeepers, using troops from the Middle east to fight and has refused to rule out further Australian contributions of troops and bombs.

    Turnbull has a meeting with Obama today, or maybe has already had it. That will save him agonising over what action to take. He will simply do whatever the yanks ask. Julie Bishop has pretty much said that.

    “We will speak to President Obama about the negotiations that are underway between US, Russia and others to find a way to end the Syrian conflict,” she said.

    “Australia does not act unilaterally, we are part of the US-led coalition.

    “It has to be a coordinated measures calculated effort

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-17/fallout-from-the-paris-attacks-to-dominate-as-turnbull-and-obam/6946666

    Meanwhile at home Abbott prances around, hogging the spotlight, writing more articles and demanding more ‘boots on the ground’. I don’t know what is worse. Having a warmonger like Abbott in charge or having a vacillating nincompoop like Turnbull making the decisions.

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