Why Four Corners sickened but did not surprise

Guest Author Uncategorized

Today’s thread is Jennifer Wilson’s passionate and moving take on Australia’s very own Abu Ghraib. Thank you, Jennifer.

Ken Canning, Green Left Weekly

In his 2014 book, Dark Emu, Bunarong, Tasmanian and Yuin man Bruce Pascoe challenges white man’s history of Indigenous people as hunter gatherers, and instead puts forward an absorbing thesis, well researched and documented, of systems of agriculture, aquaculture and governance recorded by early white settlers, but somehow overlooked by those who have insisted upon an ongoing account of this country’s Indigenous peoples that denies them as anything other than primitive.

Every time we discuss this book in our household I express my disbelief that evidence such as that so compellingly presented by Pascoe could have gone unnoticed, ignored, concealed, disregarded, disrespected by the legions of white writers and commentators, to whom it has been available, if only they had cared to seek it, for the last two hundred plus years. Many white careers have been built on this wilful ignorance.

Why aren’t we teaching Australian children about the successes and achievements of Aboriginal culture? asks Pascoe.

Why indeed.

Of course the evidence gathered by Pascoe does not fit what remains the dominant white narrative, even after Mabo. Hard to declare terra nullius if the country is occupied by people who’ve devised successful and sophisticated system of farming and governance. Far easier if you frame them as primitive savages, flora and fauna.

The consequences of this cover-up, this conspiracy one might go so far as to suggest, have dominated white attitudes to Aboriginal people ever since invasion, and it should have come as no surprise to anyone when ABC TV’s Four Corners revealed on Monday night that Indigenous children are being tortured in detention facilities in the Northern Territory, and quite likely elsewhere in the country.

The Don Dale facility, and the horrors enacted within it, have not developed in a vacuum. They are the logical outcome of a brutal and expedient racism that has existed in Australia since 1788, and continues to thrive. It’s excruciatingly apparent that the torments perpetrated on Indigenous children in this hell hole have been known to Northern Territory governments for the last few years. Absolutely nothing has been done to alleviate this suffering, inflicted in the service of “law and order.”

I would like to point out here that none of the offences committed by the incarcerated children come anywhere near the criminal acts perpetrated upon them by those who guard them, those who oversee the guards, and those who turn their blinded eyes away from the sight of the children’s suffering. There is nothing either lawful or orderly about the behaviour of the men in charge of these children, or the men in charge of the men in charge.

There is a deeply ingrained culture, the face of which is for today the Don Dale facility, that has its origins in the denial of Aboriginal people as capable of agriculture, aquaculture and governance, and the framing of them instead as primitive savages upon whom it is permissible to wreak any kind of havoc deemed necessary for the protection and furtherance of white society.

Sick of your car being stolen? Get out the canisters and fucking gas the fucking cunt kids who took it because your car and your right to not have it nicked trumps a young black life.

Don Dale may be closed down, there will be a Royal Commission, right and left alike will continue to express bipartisan outrage but unless Australia’s fundamental attitude towards Indigenous peoples is changed, the suffering will continue.

I leave you with the words of Nigel Scullion, federal Minister for Indigenous Affairs. He’d never taken any notice of complaints that reached him about the mistreatment of Aboriginal children in the Don Dale centre, he said. The reports had never sufficiently “piqued his interest.”

SBS

273 thoughts on “Why Four Corners sickened but did not surprise”

  1. BK

    Hope that virus has settled down for you. Not much fun, especially in this cold weather, at least in summer you could sit under a tree and recoup. Your morning links are very much appreciated.

  4. This won’t help. Same NT regime, same laws enabling torture of children, same guards, same system, same racism, just a different prison. Are we really supposed to believe this will make everything better?

    Youth detainees could be moved to NT immigration detention centre

    Children from the Don Dale prison could be moved to an immigration detention facility in the wake of the damning Four Corners report.

    A spokesman for Chief Minister Adam Giles said the Government “wishes to find alternative accommodation for the juveniles detained in Don Dale as quickly as possible”.

    “Former immigration detention centres are being assessed for their suitability,” the spokesperson said.

    The spokesman said three former immigration detention centres are under consideration, including the facility at Wickham Point, about 50 kilometres from Darwin.

    The Government has been under intense pressure over its treatment of young detainees since the ABC Four Corners report aired this week.

    “We’ve got an immediate problem to deal with, how can we deal with that in a better situation,” Education Minister Peter Chandler said today

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-28/nt-govt-to-move-kids-to-wickham-point-immigration-detention/7668042

    • The CLP are such a pack of mercenary opportunists that they make themselves an easy target in such circumstances. But racism and mistreatment of indigenous people are well entrenched in the NT going back to the days when it was a frontier settlement, seemingly there for the convenience of Vesteys.

      It is deeply endemic. Although aboriginals had mostly voted Labor, they’d not had same reciprocated. A few had won NT seats but were not looked on as leaders. And for federal seats, and the perks they brought in addition to the bigger stage, they were not on the horizon. It was the preserve of the Trades and Labour Council and the machine powers within the party, despite the growing pool of talent. It was only the Julia Gillard intervention to nominate Nova Peris for the Senate (despite all the howling and protests that brought) that led to any change in that approach. It will get better from now on and they will get political leaders proportionate to the voting support they bring.

      We cannot expect anything much from this government, who are just looking at some way of quietly burying the issue after the outrage subsides. But Labor should be making plans for completely breaking the cultural cycle that has prevailed there. The administration of justice is a good starting point, albeit one of many needed.

  6. An old joke the German Prisoner of war Camp Commandant, I have good news and bad news the good news is half of you will be moved to other camps, the bad news is the top half of you go to camp A and the bottom half to camp B.

  7. They can’t do anything right, can they?

    From Royal Commissions to Captain’s Picks, Turnbull dithers and hesitates, obfuscates and delays.

    This is not “stability”.

    It’s the sign of a weak prime Minister chronically at odds with his own Cabinet, too afraid of the stab in the back to do anything.

    Meanwhile, his colleagues jostle and jockey for position, preference and prominence. It’s like the last, dying days of a corrupt, decaying regime… except it should be the first flush of youth: a new government that’s supposed to have (and arrogantly claims to have) a clear mandate from the people to act decisively and to deliver it’s mighty “Plan For Jobs & Growth”.

    Turnbull can’t even come to a decision on a No-Brainer: the nomination of Rudd for Secretary-General of the UN. Rudd has no chance of winning, that’s clear. He can’t do any lasting damage to the World if he runs and loses. So what harm is there in nominating him, at least for form’s sake? Why go down the grubby path of partisan politics on such a matter?

    The Liberals are clearly a party founded on payback, bitterness and petty point-scoring. A dose of Opposition would have done them good. They never got over losing in 2007, and so they’ve been loudly proclaiming ever since that all they needed was clear air to show that the Howard government lived on.

    But only the dregs remained after Howard went, and now most of them are gone too: Howard himself, Hockey, Brough, Roy, Abbott as LOTO and PM, Nelson, Robb, and many more.

    Who do we have left? The perennially indecisive Turnbull, surrounded by either back-stabbers or front-stabbers: Dutton, Morrison and the eternally loyal Julie Bishop, all members of a “government” hanging on by the thinnest of paper-thin majorities, a heart beat away from being forced to visit the Governor-General for a new commission, should one of their wheezy back-benchers shuffle off, change his (and it’s likely to be a “He”) allegiance, or just go slow on this ideological issue or that.

    The polls have resumed their downwards slide while nothing happens up top in the governmental offices. The rumour is that they won’t even convene Parliament until late next month, the product of a legislative ennui brought about by the spectacular failure of just about every “magnificent” and “brilliant” (CPG-speak for “disastrous”) gambit Turnbull has tried-on, from the DD to the botched Budget, with all the fuck-ups in-between.

    I said a long time ago that winning government isn’t like investing in a start-up: you can walk away from a failed start-up, but you have to at least try to make a government work.

    Now we have government and governance paralysed over a matter so trivial and so straightforward that you could look up the correct course of action in Politics For Dummies.

    Turnbull is frozen in the photoflash of his own inability to make up his mind, and to argue his case against the troglodytes in his own party who see an enemy in every shadow, and a threat around every corner. They only stop their paranoia and hate to bury their snouts in the trough so they can suck up more public money and entitlement.

    This government has failed already, and it hasn’t even started being a government. It’s stillborn. DOA. Dead yet not dead. Too weak to act, and too fractured to fix the problem. Indolent, lazy and shallow.

    Who elected these clowns? Who ever thought that Turnbull would be the Messiah? He is a joke and an embarrassment, not a Prime Minister.

  9. Tanya Plibersek on ABC24.

    The government says it consulted the opposition and indigenous leaders about the terms of reference. Tanya says they didn’t.

  11. Turnbull wants a by-election in Herbert because some defence bods and hospital patients were allegedly unable to vote. Or that’s his excuse.

    So what about by-elections in all the other electorates where AEC stuff-ups meant people were unable to vote?

    What about the remote communities where the AEC mobile teams blew in without notice two weeks before election day and then blew out a few hours later, denying most community members a chance to vote?

    What about all those voters who were told ballot papers had run out so they would just have their names ticked off and that would be it?

    What about the postal vote forms that never arrived, or arrived too late?

    What about the hospital patients in places other than Herbert who said they were unable to vote?

    If Fizza is so concerned about the democratic rights of about 100 people in Herbert then he should also be equally concerned about the denial of the right to vote to thousands of other Australians. Or does the right to vote only get a mention when the Turnbull government really needs to scrape up an extra 100 or so votes to win one vital seat?

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/federal-election-2016/we-owe-it-to-the-voters-of-herbert-malcolm-turnbull/news-story/86abd8844e070dee543dad23917e94bf

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/federal-election-2016/federal-election-2016-glenn-lazarus-launches-assault-on-aec/news-story/5d5d7b771438d6a2cfb1783cd74f3216

  12. What the … ?

    NT Government counter-suing two boys tear-gassed by prison guards at Don Dale centre

  14. I guess it was inevitable that SC DH AH would pick a sound man to run the RC.

    Jay and Lynn’s Yes, Minister will never date.

    • After all Rudd has done for the Libs … Goes to show you, you never get a thank you from them. Don’t ever trust that Party – my rule.

  20. Sooky la la turnoff is getting hammered on my twitter feed. I am ambivalent about the UN appointment. Krudd not my cup of tea, but I do agree it is a very bad look that the aus gov won’t back a fellow Aussie.

    • Yeah, she doesn’t have the soaring oratorical style of obama, jfka, but she’s doing an awesome job, and her speechwriters have outdone themselves – could almost believe the speech was written by Sam Seaborn & Toby Ziegler (aka Aaron Sorkin – yes ok, Im a WestWing tragic)

  22. I have my own personal feelings about Rudd’s suitability for the job, but they are irrelevant to the issue.

    Faced with merely nominating someone who had next to no chance of winning the appointment, Turnbull has caved in to the Right wing troglodytes of his own party, showing just how much he is captive to them.

    Effectively this is an admission by Turnbull that the Right Wing – whom he nominally defeated just last September by ousting Abbott – is now back in charge enough to sway important matters of state and convention. Maybe they’re back in charge totally.

    For sure, Turnbull has pissed off his moderate backers. So now BOTH the moderates AND the Right are his enemies. How do I know the Right are his enemies? Because they never forget, and never forgive. Some people say the Labor Party has big haters. These guys in the Right Wing of the Libs wrote the book on hating and institutional pettiness. They will just see this capitulation as a sign of pathetic weakness on Turnbull’s part, further emboldening them to ever more reactionary behaviour.

    Turnbull can’t last long now. He is, as they say in chess, zugzwanged: whatever move he makes from now on will damage him.

    Turnbull is an amateur politician, unskilled and unsuited to the job of party leader and certainly ineptly cast as Prime Minister. Weak, weak, weak, he is the new Billy McMahon: friendless, lonely and mocked within and without.

    He is in office, but has no power. He is a relic of the promise that so many wrote into him. Useless and vain, unable to get even his own party to agree with him, yet still capable of earning the disfavour even of his allies.

    He should go back to his harbourside mansion and disappear, never to return.

  25. Indigenous groups say Martin ‘inappropriate’ to head juvenile detention royal commission

    A group of Aboriginal legal and health organisations and land councils say they have no confidence in the outcome of the NT royal commission.
    The royal commission into the NT’s justice system has been “incredibly rushed” and is “fundamentally flawed”, say a group of Aboriginal legal and health organisations.

    They also have no faith in the newly appointed Commissioner Brian Ross Martin

    http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2016/07/29/indigenous-groups-say-martin-inappropriate-head-juvenile-detention-royal

  27. Was it only yesterday Nikki Savva announced “The Emergence” of the Real Turnbull ? 😆 She was right and a pusillanimous “Real Truffles” it turned out to be.

    Loved Aquirre’s {?} comparison with russian dolls. Each reported “emergence’ of the ‘real Turnbull’ reveals a smaller and even less significant character.

  28. Turnbull has not only pissed off Rudd (and we all know just how vengeful a Krudd spurned can be) but he has also given quite a slap to Julie Bishop who was supportive of Rudd’s nomination.

    Rudd was never going to be UNSG, there are too many other, better candidates, but it would not have hurt Fizza to be magnanimous and endorse him.

    I don’t know why Turnbull is bothering to placate the Loony Right. It doesn’t matter what he does or doesn’t do, when they think they have the numbers and a suitable candidate they will get those knives out. It shouldn’t be long now ……

  29. The plan by the NT government to relocate the inmates of the Don Dale centre to some relatively isolated former Immigration Detention Centre is wrong and unjust.
    Incarceration of criminals should take place within their own communities as much as that is possible.It should never be too problematic for close relatives and friends to visit and maintain relationships with prisoners. And within those communities that have prisons, the facility should be at least adjacent to the town and transport and accommodation facilities.
    I frequently see people who expend all their money in undertaking a visit to a relative in gaol to the extent that they have no further money for food and other essentials for several days or even weeks afterwards. In fact it is not unusual to have people call upon us for sufficient fuel to return home to some distant town after a desperately wanted but financially ruinous visit to a relative. It is so unjust, and discriminatory.
    Instead of having a few “factory farming” prisons scattered around the state, why not have many more located adjacent to all the major centres and all but the most dangerous prisoners held as close to their home and or families as is possible.

  30. After this debacle up there in the NT, I’d be surprised if the CLP can retain more than 5 seats in the election in 4 weeks’ time.

    They may be saved in one or two of them by the fact that they’ve introduced optional preferential voting, but this whole debacle is hardly good coverage for them.

  33. ‘Man’ words –

    Man flu – a slight case of the sniffles experienced by a man.
    Man bag – a handbag for men.
    Mankini – needs no description
    Man boobs – also needs no description
    Man bun – a hairstyle favoured by younger men
    Man cave – a room or space specifically reserved for the male members of a household.

    We also have ‘mandate’.

    mandate

    A social party with men and/or male-related activities. Although some people propose that it be only an all-male gathering, some ManDates do include women, and the ManDate just signifies the partaking of male-oriented activites.
    “Hey, let’s go play some football with the dudes.”
    “All right, it’s a ManDate!”

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=man%20date&defid=2825935

  34. On those numbers, I wouldn’t expect them to remain that way. Basically there’s a number of electorates with a 2cp that isn’t Coalition vs. Labor still to be counted, and many of them would be heavily conservative ones (for example, Murray, O’Connor, etc). Once they’re added, it will probably end up at around 50.5% to the Coalition by my guessing.

    Speaking of which, I’ve noticed something curious about the Melbourne electorate. It seems that the Liberals are leading there with the 2-PP margin. Which is kind of revolting to see. That would imply a large number of Greens voters preferenced Liberal above Labor there.

    • they’ve only counted about 12,000 lib v alp preference votes though (about 13% of the total).

  38. Rudd is releasing docos showing Waffles promised to support him, as recently as last December.

  39. Does he have any foot left to shoot himself in?

    He also confirmed he had seen footage of six teenage boys being sprayed with teargas in Don Dale’s behavioural management unit before it was shown on Four Corners, but said: “The first I’d seen of any footage before we came to government was on Monday night.

    “I had seen the footage of the gassing component before because that was in our time of government – it has been referred to police, it has been in media,” he said. “But any of the footage before we came to government I hadn’t seen.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/jul/29/adam-giles-suggests-lawyers-who-spoke-to-four-corners-had-political-motives

    Seems Their ABC site is not covering this. Their TV news (Canberra) did.

  40. Made some marmalade yesterday, set nicely.

    Made a slightly bigger batch today, had to use some Billingtons’ dark muscovado sugar—doubt it will set.

    Ah well, no probs, be a lovely sauce over icecream etc, good strong orange flavor, nice and bitter, lovely finishing note of molasses.

    Must say I don’t like this stove top, crap design with simmer burner at the front.

    • Sugars are very interesting.

      Someone should post a table showing the degrees of refinement. My favourite is palm sugar (jaggery). Not refined, just extracted from the palm oil.

    • Diffusers work a treat.

      Especially for tagines but that’s a totally different story.

  42. I was a pissed off when Rudd was first kicked out. I thought it would be a disaster for labor and that is how it turned out in the end..

    I fully support Turnbull not nominating him. He wouldn’t win and it was only to support his ego. Much bigger things to worry about. This wont hurt Turnbull at all.

    • Hm.

      And Labor goes “Waffles won’t stand up for an Australian.”

      I am not a fan of Rudd The Rat.

      Waffles could have saved himself a lot of agony, outside caucus, by supporting The Rat.

  43. IMO not subjecting the international community to Rudd will probably be the only correct decision Turnbull makes.

    • I haven’t checked the odds but what do you reckon The Rat’s are / were?

      Be that all as it may, the bigger issue that his caucus put Waffles to the sword by deciding nothing but to hang out His Majesty to dry.

    • less than zero. keep in mind that the five permanent members of the security council each have veto power over nominations and I doubt the Chinese would’ve forgotten the ratfuckers comment.

  44. Most people who say “I have nothing to hide” really have a hide.

  46. https://www.themonthly.com.au/today/sean-kelly/2016/29/2016/1469773991/turnbull-becoming-weaker-day

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-29/rudd-releases-letters-to-turnbull-on-un-secretary-general-bid/7674038

    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/comment/disruptive-power-20160728-gqgazk.html

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-29/bob-brown-says-nsw-greens-old-guard-should-quit/7673340

  47. I am angry with Turncoat. He should have backed Rudd as the Australian candidate and let Rudd do his own campaigning. I am sure the committee who picks the next SG of the UN can work out for themselves if Rudd is who and what they want.

    Turnbull is a feral pig for standing in Rudd’s way, and you all know my opinion of KR.

  48. From earlier today. There will be more in The Monthly out on Monday.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/federal-election-2016/bob-brown-urges-the-greens-to-cull-their-cold-war-diehards/news-story/a99619003ead14d306877fdb5825b038

    Bob Brown urges the Greens to cull their Cold War diehards
    12:00AM July 29, 2016
    Jared Owens Reporter

    Greens co-founder Bob Brown has urged a “clean-out” of the party’s NSW division, which is dominated by extremist hardliners left over from the Cold War.

    Although many Greens spring from the environmental movement, the party’s NSW leadership includes senator Lee Rhiannon, formerly of the Soviet-sponsored Socialist Party, and convener Hall Greenland, a one-time Trotskyist expelled from Labor in 1984.

    The Greens party was thumped at the federal election, suffering a negative swing in the Senate and advancing little in targeted lower-house seats such as Grayndler and Sydney.

    Dr Brown, who retired from parliament in 2012 after leading the Greens to their best result in 2010, has taken the division to task in an interview to be published in next week’s issue of The Monthly.

    “They need a clean-out in NSW,” he told the magazine. “The people who have been for decades running the NSW Greens need to do what I did: retire and make way for new blood and ­people more in tune with the electorate in 2016 — this is no longer 1986.”

    Senator Rhiannon, first elected to state parliament in 1999, said Greens in every state needed to be “very frank with ourselves” and have “a respectful discussion of what’s happened”.

    The Monthly says the senator burst into tears when asked about her faction — derided as the “Eastern Bloc” — saying the label had been hurled at her ilk to associate them with Soviet communism.

    “I’ve always been open. My parents were in the Communist Party. I was in the old Socialist Party. I’ve always acknowledged that, and I’m very proud of my history,” she said. “The people who were in the old Communist Party have made a great contribution to this country. I get a little bit sad at that, because I miss my parents.”

    Senator Rhiannon was the target of ASIO surveillance as an 18-year-old amid evidence she had arranged to meet KGB agent Vladimir Alekseev aboard a Russian cruise ship in 1970. She said she spent the six-week cruise reading and socialising, and had never knowingly met a Russian spy.

    Senator Rhiannon downplayed the benefits of winning seats and forming government, believing the role of MPs was to support activists outside parliament. “Social change doesn’t happen because an MP introduces a bill,” she said.

    Senator Rhiannon has applauded protesters for breaking the law. Her advisers include Freya Newman, 23, found guilty in 2014 of hacking into the computer records of a $60,000 scholarship awarded to Tony Abbott’s daughter, Frances.

    Despite inhabiting one of Australia’s most urbanised states, the Greens in NSW have never had more than one senator at a time, and had only a fleeting presence in the House of Representatives between 2002 and 2004.

    The Victorian Greens, where esteemed activists have studied under Democratic activists in the US, have made electoral gains with tactics such as canvassing of social housing blocks.

    The booth adjacent to South Yarra’s Horace Petty Estate, canvassed by Higgins candidate Jason Ball, saw an above-average 12.2 per cent surge for the Greens and a commensurate drop in support for Labor.

    Victorian Greens director Lar­issa Brown — whose candidates narrowly fell short in seats such as Batman, Wills and Melbourne Ports — said she was “elated” by the result as she was pursuing a “two-election strategy” that puts the party within striking distance at the next election.

    If the result is repeated at the Victorian state election in 2018, she believes the Greens would win the corresponding seats of Northcote, Brunswick and Richmond.

    The Monthly article says the Greens’ campaign strategy relied on a 96-page report by Lonergan Research that fundamentally misjudged key election issues based on 16 focus group interviews with 130 voters.

    The report advised the Greens that “Liberal and Labor are NOT going to focus on health in the upcoming federal election” despite the focus groups revealing the Greens’ message on dental and mental healthcare were “very well liked” and “considered vote-changing”.

    • I guess the Greens are no longer a party of the left. Then again, I have thought this for quite a while.

      Neocons is what they are in fact.

    • What the Greens need to do is stop Bob Brown commenting on them. They’re never going to regenerate with him sticking his oar in every couple of weeks. He’s a relic. And he thinks populism is the answer. And he’s all for stuff when it’s working, then when it doesn’t work he turns on it, and starts going on about where the party has gone wrong. His instincts aren’t as good as he thinks they are, and he should just butt out.

      That’s their first problem. Their second one is that they’re far too reliant on what focus groups tell them. An issues-based party needs to concentrate on issues, solid issues that matter, not flavour of the month stuff. They shouldn’t be designing strategies to maximise vote counts at elections. They’re up against major-party well-oiled machines in that area, and they’re simply not going to win. They might try being the nation’s conscience for a while, that’s what the nation wants them to be. Environment first, talk about the environment. Be Greens. It’s not that hard.

      Their third problem is that they think ‘defining’ themselves is something they should be aspiring to. They’re not a brand. Just pick a party on an issue that most closely tallies to what their beliefs on the issue are, and bloody well work with them. Be a constructive force in Parliament, instead of banging on and on about how they “can’t work with” the major parties. You get things done that way.

      Their fourth problem is that they have the wrong guy leading them. Di Natale comes across like an accountant with a spin doctor at his side. Bad, bad look for the Greens. They should have an idealist leading them. Someone people can believe in.

  49. With all Leroy’s good stuff, I rest my various cases, jaggery excepted.

  50. TLBD

    Bloody Danes, especially one Johan Gustav Christoffer Thorsager Kjeldahl 🙂 Looks like I will have to start using his pain the arske method of Nitrogen analysis at work 😦 . The blow softened by how the Kjeldahl Merhod came about. Sadly for me no beer just bloody fish. hydrolysate fertiliser.

    Kjeldahl worked in Copenhagen at the Carlsberg Laboratory, associated with Carlsberg Brewery, where he was head of the Chemistry department from 1876 to 1900.He was given the job to determine the amount of protein in the grain used in the malt industry. Less protein meant more beer….

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Kjeldahl

    • The Danes used to have Carlsberg and Tuborg.

      “In 1996 the last Tuborg beer was brewed in Hellerup and the area is now providing fashionable apartments, houses and business offices.” says Wiki.

      It went there as it went here.

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